marcus's daily(?) rant

8.21.2005

a conservative response

a good friend of mine, kyle martin, recently weighed in on the controversial issues of the war in iraq and the president's handling of cindy sheehan from a liberal point of view. his is an opinion and pov that i respect and he is a man that i admire. so, i enjoyed getting to better understand his approach to these situations. you can read his article here: please don't send me a bumper sticker, but... it's long but very well articulated.

here's my response. if you don't read his post, it might not make much sense.

i too think rush is a complete ass. he's arrogant and rude and very condescending. nonetheless, i listen to him. i listen to him because he is probably the most educated on current events and issues that face our body politic (i know you are probably going to disagree with that and say al franken or some air america talking head should get that title, but whatever, my opinion, not scientific fact). rush studies the issues, he knows the facts and he knows what he believes. that i can respect

i also agree that bush should not meet with ms. sheehan. not because she would make him look bad, but because of what it would/would not accomplish. this is little publicized, but she has already met with the president and voiced these concerns. he answered her questions. now it's time to move on. what it would accomplish, i fear, is a precedent that if you make a big enough stink about something and get the media on your side, you too can meet with the president, even if you don't have a legitimate reason. and where does that end? i sympathize with her, but i agree with you. it is a volunteer army. bush didn't draft her son. he didn't train the terrorist insurgents. and he didn't plant the ied that killed her son. she can disagree with why we are there, but her blaming the president for her son's death is shameful. and her demand that we cut and run from iraq with our tail between our legs is the most ill-informed notion. democrats, like joe biden, john kerry and harry reid, have been calling this the modern day vietnam for 2 years now. and if they got their way, that would become a self-fulfilling prophecy. we have to finish the job, not for our national pride, not for the memory of our dead, but for the people of iraq. they cannot stand alone. we must support them.

why are we there?

i'm not sure. there are a lot of good reasons. and some bad ones.

  • wmd's (bad) - this reason is the most popular amongst critics. this is only a bad reason because we didn't find them. had we found them, very few critics, i'd say no critic, would have a leg to stand on. much ado was made of their physical absence. little attention was paid to the evidence of their prior existence (ie the compounds needed to create chemical weapons, the labs necessary to grow biologicals, and components used in creating nuclear devices and enriching uranium, for starters). we all know that government intelligence is unreliable. intel is inherently flawed. because we never get to see the whole picture until it is too late. we gather scraps of information and connect the dots as best we can. this means we must often guess. these are educated guesses, but guesses nonetheless. people make mistakes, misread information, or sometimes (and i think much less often) read into intel what they want to see. however, it is what we must depend upon in making decisions of national security. it sucks, but that's life. i still have a hard time believing all of this intel (both ours and that from the international community) was wrong. it's far more plausible to me that these weapons and agents were smuggled out, destroyed or very well hidden. we each must make our own decisions about this. you get to choose what you wish to believe. those predisposed to opposing the president will choose one thing, while i choose another.
  • finishing desert storm/ousting a brutal dictator (mixed) - let's face it. the first pres. bush bowed to political pressure and pulled out of iraq without removing hussein. we thought we could keep him on a short leash. we were wrong. for the next 10+ years, saddam continually violated the cease-fire agreement he signed in '91. he fired on us fighters patrolling the no-fly zone which is an act of war. he refused to let weapons inspectors do their jobs as proscribed in the aforementioned cease-fire agreement. and according to intelligence, he pursued wmd's which he was specifically restricted from doing (not to mention the millions of pounds of conventional explosives which he wasn't supposed to have, claimed not to have, but when we invaded, what did we find? millions of pounds of conventional explosives). we found jet fighters and tanks buried in the sand that he supposedly destroyed after desert storm. he could not be trusted. he was breaking the rules and laughing at us with impunity. c'mon, this was a bad guy. he assassinated political opponents, imprisoned and tortured anyone who disagreed with him or spoke their mind, and committed mass genocide against the kurds and war-crimes against the iranians. thousands upon thousands of bodies have been found in mass graves. he, unprovoked, invaded a sovreign country, kuwait. his evilness hadn't quite reached hitler status, but it wasn't for lack of trying. today's world has no room for someone like this. i would like to know where the liberals were on this. where was their outrage? as many as 1 million iraqis have been killed, tortured or wrongly imprisoned by this man and it never even made a blip on their radar. but after a few marines die, they're asking for the resignation of bush, cheney, rumsfeld and rice. they are not the evil in this world. saddam is. he should've been dealt with 10 years ago. no rational person can argue with this. still, i don't know if this was a good reason to go to war now. i think it needed to be done sooner than later, but perhaps we should have focused more squarely on the broader issue of terrorism. which brings me to my 3rd reason...
  • the war on terror (good?) - there was no clear link between saddam and osama. that i will admit. but there is a long money trail that connects iraq to al-qaeda. for years we have known of prior terrorist training camps located in iraq. saddam also had links to other terrorist leaders, not al-qaeda, but terrorists nonetheless. al-zarqawi, an al-qaeda lieutenant, was born and raised in iraq. hello!?! was he the only one? doubtful. terrorists know no boundaries. democrats seem to think that all of the world's terrorists live in afghanistan. what about syria, iran, pakistan, saudi arabia, indonesia, philippines, egypt, morroco, sudan, and the list goes on. we can't go to war with every country that contains terrorists. what we need to do is overthrow regimes that sponsor and support terrorism and pick those battles based on their probability of success. we don't go marching into iran because they might have nuclear weapons and many more american soldiers would die in that war. afghanistan and iraq were (believe it or not) the safe bets. these were battles we could win. would they be easy? certainly not. but compared to invading saudi arabia, from which the majority of the 9/11 highjackers came, they would be a lot easier and result in fewer casualties. but i do disagree with the argument that if we fight the terrorists there, we won't have to fight them here. it's flawed. if that's why we were going there, why weren't we better prepared for the insurgency? if the goal was to draw terrorists to us in iraq, why were we so surprised and caught off-guard when they showed up? i just think that's a losing argument.
  • democracy in the middle east (very good) - but this isn't a losing argument. name a truly democratic country in the world that openly sponsors terrorism. name one that continually abuses its power and oppresses its citizens. you can't. the middle east and the nation of islam has been high-jacked by fringe elements. islam is being perverted and demonized. if moderate and conservative muslims were allowed a vote and a voice, what effect do you think we would see? like him or not, pres. bush has brought some resolution to the isreali/palestinian conflict. they are on the way to peace. egypt, saudi arabia and lebanon are slowly but surely moving closer and closer to becoming truly democratic. two extremely oppresive regimes have been removed and replaced with fledgling republics. and much pressure has been brought to bear on surrounding countries in the region to move in the same direction. i think for the first time in decades we are seeing some progress in the middle east. it is a very tenuous situation over there. and the mission has to be completed. you win wars not simply by killing the enemy, but by destroying their infrastructure. and we will not beat terrorists by killing terrorists. we will beat them by making it more and more difficult for them to operate. we will beat them by giving all of the followers of islam the privileges of democracy. if this is not true, then our system is built on a lie. maybe it's too big a dream, but we our it to ourselves, our children, and our world to try. we must try.

i don't want to blame the media. but i feel they harp on the bad or more questionable reasons for the war and don't mention the good. republicans are stupid. they are terrible tacticians. they gambled and went for the easy sell, wmd's. the intel was wrong and now no one seems to care about the other, more important reasons. we see our body count and mourn. we become outraged at the sacrifice we have made and the lack of gratitude expressed. but we should make it count for something. we should be proud as we mourn, ms. sheehan. the 1800 dead american military is a disturbing statistic for us. the stat we will never see is the number of american and iraqi lives saved by this action. we may never know the full benefit of our actions there. but i have to believe there will be benefit from this. call me an optimist. i want to believe good will come out of this war. i believe good already has.

thanks, kyle, for getting me on my soap box. i'll get down now.

18 Comments:

  • I'm so glad you posted to my blog. I hope you will more often. Also, I'm glad that my little letter to Rush sparked something inside you.

    I don't know if you'll remember this conversation we had, but one time you told me that I just wanted to be a liberal and I was actually a conservative, I just didn't know it yet. I still don't know how you figured that. Maybe because I...you know, I can't think of why. I will admit that, at the time I really had very little knowledge about policies or why I believed in one party's over another. All I knew was that the Democrats were supposed to be for the arts and education and the poor, and I really liked those ideals. I saw Republicans as more buisness and capitalist centered. I also viewed Republicans as mean spirited and gun happy, only interested in keeping things the way they've always been "and that's the way it should be."

    My views towards both parties have changed quite a bit, and while I still identify myself primarily with Democrats, I now realize that coruptions and hypocrisy abound in both parties. To some degree moreso in the Democratic party because they are supposed to be about one thing and they turn out to be the same as the Republicans half the time.

    My impression of the Republicans varies depending on my mood. I'm not one of these liberals who likes to attack everything Republicans do simply because it was a Republican move, and I certainly don't disagree with them on everything, but the main difference comes from the reason I think people are Republican. Marcus, you said that the Republicans are stupid because they are terrible tacticians, but if you asked a Democrat about a plan or tactic they would trip over themselves. With the war seemlingly so poorly planned and executed then why didn't Kerry win in a landslide over Bush? It's because Dems had virtually no idea how to get out of the mess any more than Reps did. Not to mention that we had no candidate who was in touch with most Americans. People like Bush because he seems like a good ole' boy. Kerry, Edwards, Dean, and any of the others, exept maybe Clark (who had no momentum) just seem like stiff shirted liberals with no clue how to run for president. Plus, Bush had Rove, the evil genius.

    I've spend way to much time talking about that and I want to discuss your post:

    I also think that Rush is an ass, but you hit the nail on the head. He knows what he's talking about. The conclusions that he draws are all wrong in my opinion, but for what it's worth, he makes a lot sense. For instance, he might say, "If you want this, we need to do this." I'm left going, "You're absolutely right, Rush, but I don't want that, I want this," and then he calls me an America hating liberal commie.

    I kind of feel like you about Sheehan. I think the media played way too much into her situation and sort of made a martyr out of her and her cause, where really all she wanted to do originally get some face to face answers from a man she blaimed for her son's decision. I didn't agree with Bush's reasons for going to war, but if my son signed up and agreed then he would have to bite whatever steak was cooked for him. It might have even depressed the hell out of me and I might have hated Bush, but I would try and take my solis with others in grief not a publicity stunt. I still think that didn't want media attention surrounding his utter inability to verbalize logically a rationalle that now seems defunct. And I still can't believe he won't publicly admit any wrong-doing. I mean, Clinton had to come out and say he'd boned his intern, surely Bush could admit to some mistakes done even in good conscience.

    You've done a great job of breaking downthe reasons for war and your analysis of them. Let me make some short comments.

    WMDs

    It doesn't really matter if they had them or not and if they were smuggled out or not the intelligence was shotty and weak and should never have been an excuse to go to war. Before the war started, it was the predominant reason. If you told me that you made some wings that will allow me to fly, I'm going to want some hard proof before I strap them on and jump off a cliff. It seems that your presumption that some might have "read into intelligence what they want to see." It seems that maybe few do this, but this time I think it was a very important few.

    Finishing Desert Storm

    It does seem that we should have removed Saddam at that time, but we didn't, and he continued to be a prick. But we tolerated him because 1. we don't like going to war, and 2. he never posed a real, immediate threat to the U.S. For whatever reason, we didn't take him out at that time. So after 9/11 we go searching for people and nations that support terrorism. We oust the Taliban from Afganistan (good thing) and we start setting up a government there. And, all of a sudden we are focusing on Iraq? If we were done with terrorist searching why didn't we just say so. Saddam is a ruthless dictator, but he had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al Queda. In fact they were enemies. Iraq is now run rampant with terrorist where Saddam once kept them out. Not because he thought they were bad guys and because he wanted to protect his people, but because in the end, Osama and his people are in this for religion and their beliefs (however skew) Saddam is simply a power-monster. They don't see eye to eye on anything. A non-existant link to terror through a common religion is the only excuse that the Bush administration could find so that this didn't seem to come out of nowhere. Really, I don't have a problem with going to war to take out a ruthless dictator and to bring peace and democracy to a land where people are hungry for it. But I would like to go in there knowing that I'm right and not just because of my arrogant ethnocentricism, but because I've got the backing of the other nations of the world. The UK, and some really tiny insignificant nations. And in the UK only a small minority was for the war. In the US roughly half didn't think we should have been there. To me, a preimptive strike should be a little more popular. Given the imformation that we had the reasoning was so sketchy.

    The War on Terror

    I've already kind of touched on this one. I don't think the connection is there. It is now, but I don't think it was then. Given the knowledge we have about terrorist nations Iraq would have been at the bottom of the list. Saudia Arabia, one of our greatest financial liabilies, would be much closer to the top. They would also be up there with Iraq for human injustices.

    Democracy in the Middle East

    I'm a little uncomfortable with this one. Democracy (or our pseudo version of it) works for us...sort of. But who's to say that we have got everything figured out and that our way is the only way. It is very ethnocentric of the U.S. to claim that because we do it this way then everyone should. We came to figure it out on our own, I just don't see forcing our way of life on other nations as a good idea. I also don't see how Bush has done anything to help out the Palestinian/Israelli conflict. If tensions have eased or comprimises made I think the credit goes to the two nations involved. I have a hard time seeing what Bush had to do with it. Perhaps putting pressure on the two governments? But, I don't see why that really would have made a difference after all this time. Perhaps I'm wrong.

    Of course all this talk and babbling is for nothing. We went to war, people died, people continue to die, and people will continue to die because of our presence there. I guess the big question is, how would this have been different had we not gone over there. Saddam's regime would still exist, and while people would still be afraid of their government, they wouldn't be afraid to go outside or simply wake up. I hope things do resolve over there and that Iraq becomes a stable democracy, embracing all of the wonder things of western society. Maybe it will be a wonderful vacation spot someday. I hope so. I think it will even out, but man it doesn't seem worth it right now. Time will tell.

    Good hearing from you, Marcus. Keep reading.

    By Blogger Kyle, at 23 August, 2005 18:28  

  • Hi, Marcus! I found your blog through Kyle's. I appreciate the way you laid out your case with intelligence and sensitivity. That's more than I can say for many conservatives and liberals across the board.

    I have to admit that I agree more with Kyle, but I respect your views and appreciate your willingness to share them in an open way. Most conservatives I know would dismiss anyone with an opposing opinion as a pinko commie or an ass. Some liberals I know would do the same thing in reverse.

    I think it's important that rational people have conversations about important issues in a civilized manner, It's what our nation is founded on--people of different parties representing a large, diverse population and trying to compromise on ideas or discuss issues in ways that benefit the nation.

    I won't comment here on my thoughts about the war. Frankly, I'm tired of talking about it. As one of the few liberals I know in West Texas, it can be exhausting to continue explaining my views to people. And besides, Kyle said it pretty well, so I'll leave it with this: thank you both for sharing your ideas clearly and in a spirit of humility.

    Hope wedding plans are going well, Marcus! I read your last post about the Prepare test and it made me think about when we took the test...and honestly, it hasn't made that much difference for us. I can't even really remember what our results were. Maybe it opened up some new areas we needed to discuss, but the weaknesses we had, we already knew and the strengths we had have continued to get stronger. I'm sure you guys will have a wonderful marriage!

    Talk to you later!
    Jocelyn (Reese)

    By Blogger jocelyn, at 23 August, 2005 21:42  

  • i just think it is connected to the war on terror. we needed to destabilize that area. and we had very legitimate reasons for doing that in iraq (even if you disagree). more so than in other countries. the taliban and the palestinian liberation front were the only government groups that openly backed terrorism and defied the u.s. the taliban has been dealt with, for the most part. and the u.s. has been instrumental in brokering an agreement between israel and palestine, which resulted in the pullout of israel from gaza and soon the west bank. the u.s.'s backing of a new palestinian leader and pressure on that leader has resulted in change in that entire conflict. politics and debate have replaced car bombs and rpgs. i call this progress. and it wouldn't have happened without the pressure and intervention of the u.s., bush, and colin powell.

    saddam wasn't blatant about his support and wasn't the biggest supporter, but he did support it nonetheless. read the following excerpt:

    In 1993, the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) directed and pursued an attempt to assassinate, through the use of a powerful car bomb, former U.S. President George Bush and the Emir of Kuwait. Kuwaiti authorities thwarted the terrorist plot and arrested 16 suspects, led by two Iraqi nationals.

    Iraq shelters terrorist groups including the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO), which has used terrorist violence against Iran and in the 1970s was responsible for killing several U.S. military personnel and U.S. civilians.

    Iraq shelters several prominent Palestinian terrorist organizations in Baghdad, including the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), which is known for aerial attacks against Israel and is headed by Abu Abbas, who carried out the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro and murdered U.S. citizen Leon Klinghoffer.

    Iraq shelters the Abu Nidal Organization, an international terrorist organization that has carried out terrorist attacks in twenty countries, killing or injuring almost 900 people. Targets have included the United States and several other Western nations. Each of these groups have offices in Baghdad and receive training, logistical assistance, and financial aid from the government of Iraq.

    In April 2002, Saddam Hussein increased from $10,000 to $25,000 the money offered to families of Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. The rules for rewarding suicide/homicide bombers are strict and insist that only someone who blows himself up with a belt of explosives gets the full payment. Payments are made on a strict scale, with different amounts for wounds, disablement, death as a "martyr" and $25,000 for a suicide bomber. Mahmoud Besharat, a representative on the West Bank who is handing out to families the money from Saddam, said, "You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue."

    Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret terrorist training facility in Iraq known as Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations.


    we are in a war on terror, not simply al-qaeda. there are hundreds of different terrorist groups and many are just as well trained, sophisticated and capable as al-qaeda. and granted al-qaeda is not on this list, but several terrorist groups are. following 9/11, bush vowed to topple any regimes that supported terrorism. this promise was met with cheers from all americans. now, half the country has forgotten what happened on that day. we no longer have the stomach to do the right thing.

    any many ways i blame democrats. not democrat voters, but the politicians themselves. they saw an opportunity to make the war a political issue, so that they could possibly have a prayer this past november. it almost worked. but i think the result has been very damaging. the unity we felt after 9/11 disappeared because of this fracturing of the country lead by democrats.

    ask yourself this, what benefit did president bush hope to get by going to war? he surely knew it wouldn't be easy. and he had to have known that democrats would turn it into a political hot button for the upcoming election. do you think he is truly so evil that he sent american soldiers, kids, to war to die just for kicks? do you really still think it was about oil? if so, why have we yet to benefit 2 1/2 years later? it is my fervent belief that he felt this was the right thing to do. if he hadn't done something, and saddam had helped a terrorist perform an attack on u.s. soil, how could he live with himself?

    put yourself in his shoes. given the information (accurate or not) he had about the threat saddam posed to national and world security and the times we live in, could you make another decision? i couldn't. hindsight is always 20/20. remember, there was no way of knowing whether or not the intal was accurate until we went in.

    and yes i think republicans are terrible tacticians. this war should have been an easy sell to the american people. the facts speak for themselves. but there is a shadow of doubt and mistrust cast over them by the democratic leadership in congress.

    By Blogger marcus, at 24 August, 2005 19:18  

  • thanks, kyle and jocelyn, for your comments. keep reading. i love political debate. hearing your point of views helps me understand what regular democrats believe and why, which helps me reaffirm why i think the way i think when it comes to politics. thanks.

    By Blogger marcus, at 24 August, 2005 19:21  

  • hi marcus...don't know if you remember me or not...i came across your blog through kyle's also...(i was a little wishy washy about being a theatre major in my early time at ACU...of course it did suck me back in but you were gone before I got too involved...although i was in your "waiting for godot" group with jocelyn too i think...wasn't that where you designed that infamous set?!)
    i appreciated this post and the comments as well...growing up in a house with one parent who is mostly a republican(though not completely turned to the right) and one who is a vietnam vet and most definitely a democrat left me really searching for what i believed on my own...i have continued this search and have to admit that i don't feel knowledgeable enough to enter into this debate...i agree with jocelyn, though, that i would much rather enter the conversation in this manner of respect and humility...
    i hope you'll post more often...i am a stay at home mom and addicted to reading blogs during naptime! it's always fun to add one more to the reading list...although not so good for my housework!
    i also wanted to congratulate you on your wedding. i had heard that you were engaged...my husband matt went to highschool with rebecca and she has always seemed like a wonderful person in the few times i have met her...i agree with jocelyn about the prepare test...if anything, it brought up some areas we hadn't talked about, but i don't think it has had a profound impact on our marriage! nothing could have "prepared" us for the little surprise we got 4 months into that marriage...although he has been a wonderful surprise!
    well...my comment got too long, and i didn't even have anything intelligent to say...just wanted to say hi!
    ~christine(tyndall)pinson

    By Blogger christine pinson, at 25 August, 2005 11:34  

  • Please forgive me if I'm a bit obnoxious. Somtimes it just aggrivates me that Bush is a complete moron.

    wmds
    First, there's considerable evidence that the Bush administration made a decision to go to war first and read the intelligence second.
    Second, saying "but IF we had found them" doesn't help the case at all. The war would still not meet common criteria for a just war.

    The philosophical criteria for just war are really important in this argument, so if you'd like you can read a really good summary here.

    regime change
    This is never acceptable reasoning for a preemptive strike on another nation. Period. And if Iraq continues its descent into civil war, its citizens will undoubtedly be worse off than they were under Saddam. While Saddam was a brutal dictator, that doesn't automatically make the Bush administration a bunch of good guys. Have I mentioned that this mess is destabilizing the whole region?

    war on terror
    Once again, this would not have been legitimate grounds for a preemptive strike, even if it had been mentioned. It's not even an after-the-fact benefit, because terror in Iraq is increasing, and it doesn't seem to be decreasing (London?) anywhere else.

    democracy
    I like how you protect your argument by defining your opponent into a corner. If we name a democracy that encourages terrorism (cough, Egypt), you're going to say it's not a TRUE democracy. I suppose I could go to the other extreme and insist that Iraq under Saddam really was a republic ... and c'mon, nobody openly sponsors terrorism.

    Also, Bush hasn't brought any resolution to the Arab/Israeli conflict. Any progress in the region (cough, Gaza) can be primarily attributed to Ariel Sharon, Mahmoud Abbas, and the death of Arafat. All Bush did was parrot the 1947 UN resolution on Palestine.

    Also, democracy seems to work if the people decide it's a good idea, pick up their guns and kick out the dictator. But things are different when you have a big, oil-hungry nation with really big guns come into a middle eastern society and impose democracy. Which reminds me, has anybody asked the Iraqis whether they'd rather have a communistic government? Just wondering.

    furthermore
    Sheehan is doing what needs to be done, which is give us all a couple of kicks in the nuts to wake us up to the effects of our warmongering. Doug Muder compares her to the old testament prophets.

    The National Priorities Project estimates that the war has so far cost $189 billion. (Health care, anyone?) It also estimates that around 25,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed.

    In case we've forgotten that we're talking about 25,000 real people here, here's a disturbing reminder. If my understanding of the situation is correct, this suffering is our fault, our fault, OUR FAULT.

    Bush, meanwhile, continues to sail obliviously on, with new terrorist attacks appearing here and there, with nuclear weapons proliferating to Iran and North Korea, with the administration presenting no clear plan on how to end the new wave of Iraqi terrorism that is turning into a civil war.

    Iraq is falling apart, and it's our fault. The middle east is destabilizing, Iraqis are suffering, and our president is a moron.

    By Blogger Matthew, at 25 August, 2005 15:16  

  • Marcus, the article you quote raises these questions: What is the difference between terrorists, freedom fighters, vigilanties, crusaders, etc? History is written by the victors, after all, most of the time being white people who glaze over the crappy stuff white people have been responsible for.

    So if suicide bombers' families are getting paid when they blow something up they aren't martyrs, they're capitalist. Kind of an effed up version of capitalism, but capitalism, nonetheless.

    So if any sort of support of terrorism of any kind is good enough reason to go to war we would never know peace. Once we had wiped out the entire world we would have to turn on ourselves. Who put Saddam and multiple other ruthless dictators in power to begin with? When you point at others there are three pointing right back at you. Sure we may have had good intentions, thinking we were supporting the lesser of two evils, but most of the time when we help establish a corrupt government it is because it is in the financial interest of the U.S.

    I'm not one of these people who think that oil was the prime reason for the war. I don't think that it wasn't a consideration, but I truly think that Bush thinks or thought he was acting as some kind of hero by "doing the right thing" and ousting Saddam. But how does that make him different from a terrorist who kills because they have a conviction to do what they think is right. Personally, I think that anyone who thinks that bombs and guns and force ever solve problems is sadly mistaken. I don't want to call these people terrorist (although that might be an appropriate term) I'd rather call them "violently mistaken" because I think they believe that they are the righteous ones.

    I don't think that we've forgotten about 9/11. I think that we still greive over the lost their and that we want to see justice done. You say you blame the democrats for the breakdown in unity? We can second guess their motives all day long, but what they did was give voice to half the country who was already completely confused as to the motives for the war, and remain confused. If unity broke down it was because people hated seeing the death of thousands of innocents being broadcast as a excuse to kill thousands more innocents.

    I don't think Bush is evil I even thinks he believes he's right, but it is his diplomacy, his methods of violence and his determination to go to war that apaul me. Matt made a comment that has become pretty dang clear through all accounts. Bush wanted war with Iraq, period. They were finding a way to get in there.

    By Blogger Kyle, at 25 August, 2005 16:36  

  • matthew,

    this is a perfect example of what disturbs me most about the left. their complete refusal to listen to reason and inability to make a clear, complete, coherent and thought-out point.

    wmds
    you claim there is "considerable evidence" but fail to cite it. i could say that there is considerable evidence that i'm the coolest guy in the world. without proof, my claim is invalid. make a complete assertion, please. also, do you claim to be omnipotent? do you know exactly what went on in the white house and every conversation that took place? if so, use that power for good instead of towing the party line and vomitting democratic rhetoric on my blog. thank you.

    regime change
    i never mentioned regime change. i did mention the thousands of iraqis murdered at the hands (or at the very least commands) of saddam. i did mention the atrocities he committed. the world had sat idly by long enough and let him terrorize a nation. i guess millions of oppressed iraqis aren't quite as important as american lives and money. how arrogant to think that the sacrifices our soldiers have made are somehow too high a price for saving iraqi lives and providing iraq with the opportunity at peace, prosperity and happiness. these are the things we hold dear. as a superpower, we owe to the rest of the world to help all humanity achieve these dreams that our forefathers spelled out for us at this country's founding. but i guess that doesn't matter to you. let the rest of the world burn, america is going to play it's fiddle made of gold. hallelujah.

    war on terror
    how can you say for even a second that this isn't part of the war on terror? notice all the terrorists running around in iraq? also please read my own comments in response to kyle's and jocelyn's posts. it is abundantly clear that saddam supported terrorism. not al-qaeda, but other terrorists, too. democrats are very careful with their phraseology of this. they are very careful to say "osama" or "al-qaeda" never terrorists or terrorism in general. in fact, if you read the 9/11 commission report, they actually reaffirm saddam's ties to hamas, the plf, and other groups. the media and democratic party were very careful to publicize the lack of a connection between iraq(saddam) and al-qaeda(osama), and neglected to mention this other fact.

    democracy
    i wasn't attempting any tricky. i wasn't trying to play with symantics like you automatically assumed i was. i was simply trying to illustrate that if we give the people, not the radicals and extremists but the regular people, an opportunity to have a say in their future, the world would have a better chance at achieving, the much coveted, world peace and at stamping out terrorism.

    Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
    -Sir Winston Churchill

    answer me this: do you really think that democracy isn't the best form of government this world has seen? the great american experiment, democracy, while imperfect has succeeded for over 200 years. when founded, america was the only democracy in the world. 10 years later, france followed our lead. their revolution was a little over the top, but their democracy worked until napoleon got his hands on it. ok, maybe france is a bad example. but in the last 200 years many, many countries have sought to revolt against or reform their govt into a model based upon ours.

    communism and socialism are great on paper, but they go against human nature and are destined to fail. every year that passes, china starts to resemble more and more closely a republic. the chinese still have no guaranteed rights but the economy and lawmaking of china have become much more liberal. democracy, to me, is the answer for the issues that face society. just as jesus, is the answer for the aching in the hearts of men. furthermore, the iraqis are free to establish any kind of govt they want. we are encouraging them to go in one direction. they've lived in and survived a dictatorship, if they want the complete opposite of that, we can't fault them. the iraqis needed our help to "kick out" saddam. they couldn't have done it themselves. the last time they tried, he killed 20,000 kurds by helicopter machine gun fire, scud missiles and chemical weapons like mustard gas. i'm willing to forgive them if they didn't want to try again on their own without some assistance.

    furthermore
    we have to do something. we can't sit back waiting for another 9/11. in this world there are no longer any clear enemies. there is no one country to target. no one ethnicity or geography to focus on. maybe this isn't the best way to fight the war on terror. i'm willing to concede that. but what is? what is the answer? how do we stop terrorists, stop innocent bloodshed and not go to war? how do we fight an enemy that hides in caves and uses innocent women and children as shields? i'm not a war monger. i don't believe bush is. i think he's just trying to make some really difficult decisions and to do what is right. if he didn't act, he'd be guilty of even bigger stupidity. i'm reluctant to condemn his decisions because i don't have all the facts, i can't see all ends. i think this country should try to unite and get this thing done and done soon. rather than continue to debate the justifications for a war that begin 2 1/2 years ago. we can't pull out now. we have to finish the job. i'm sorry you can't see it that way.

    By Blogger marcus, at 25 August, 2005 17:31  

  • Ok, I have this big long post about all the different things you listed, but now I'm confused about what we're arguing about.

    Let me state my position, and then maybe we won't talk past each other:

    (1) Our attack on Iraq was not morally justifiable.

    (2) The things you cite as benefits of our attack on Iraq are either not benefits at all, or they are outweighed by harms.

    Are these the liberal arguments that you object to, and that I should attempt to defend? Or is there something else?

    By Blogger Matthew, at 26 August, 2005 16:04  

  • Marcus,

    (This might be a bit disshevelled and convuluted. I apologize. I was busy with several things throughout writing this comment............)

    Mega "mutual friend of the Liberal Kyle Martin" dittos.

    I read Kyle's post and honestly, all I had to say in response to him was,
    "You are now officially insane. Congratulations."

    He thought it was a complement, when actually it was a nice way of me saying, "Dude, do you have idea who's side you are on? Obviously not." But I didn't.

    For background information, Kyle and I are friends, but we do not see eye to eye politically. Vis a vis I am right, he is liberal. He still pleads his agrument the same.

    After reading Kyle's post the other day, I was so shocked and truly pissed off that I promised myself that I would no longer subject myself to his blog, eventhough I am a friend and a daily reader of Kyle's "Great Balls Of Blog".

    So, I have purposefully excluded him from my reading list this past week because after 8 hours a day of talk radio (I am able to listen at my job.) I was up to my eyeballs in hearing about the fringe left that seem to think they are wagging the dog on Democrat policy. I know my buddy Kyle, and if there is a left wing hotspot, he is more than a little likely to write about it.

    With the Nancy "Pimping out my child's death for the political gain of MoveOn.org, Code Pink, and Joan Baez" Sheehan on every other sound bite on the radio claiming that "Bush is the world's biggest terrorist" and referring to Syrian and Iranian terrorists-for-hire playing a chickensh!t game of b!tch warfare as "freedom fighters", I cringed to think that I would read a post on Kyle's blog sympathizing with her deranged agenda. Perhaps he has, but I refused to read it.

    I did, decide to re-read his post today to see why the hell it pissed me off so much the first time, realizing, yeah, I still cringe at the left's justifications for just about everything.

    Anyhow, long story short, I saw your comment on his blog and I thought, "Eureka! There is finally someone out there in my immediate blog habitat who is not completely and totally blinded by the liberal light.

    So, yeah, I guess I'll stop boycotting Kyle's blog, but I will continue to be on guard for any of his fallacies like,
    "One part of the show that I left out was when you said that we can't leave now because of the rampant terrorism that exists in Iraq now. I agree with this also, but would like to point out that under Saddam's regime, while he was one of many horrible dictators in the world, he kept the kind of terrorism that destroyed the twin towers out of his country."

    Kyle seems to have forgot his homework on this one. Psssssst...Kyle.......Iraq has been funding Al-Queda for years, and by the way, you don't set up your terrorist train camp headquaters in a country such as Iraq, if there where not a) funding and b) a need for in-house terrorism. Oh, another thing, ----
    "...kept the kind of terrorism that destroyed the twin towers out of his country."
    Have you ever seen or read any of the media available in that region. Al-Jazeera airs Americans getting their hit chopped off my butcherous zealots screaming, "praise Alah!" in the background. Do you think Al-Jazeera calls ANYONE a terrorist?? Of course not.

    Subject change:
    Anyhow, for what it's worth, I'll add you to my bloglist. If you want to add me to your list, that's fine, too. --> nbruhn.blogspot.com <--
    It hosts a plethora of conservative v. liberal fights with Kyle and myself on news issues, policy, etc.

    And by the way, I think your comments on the subject are right on.

    Nathan
    nbruhn.blogspot.com

    By Blogger ., at 27 August, 2005 23:51  

  • thanks, nathan. finally, someone who sees the light (so to speak). i love kyle. he has a heart of gold. but i'm afraid he can be, like most liberals, a little to idealistic. a quality to be admired most assuredly. but when it comes to politics, war and terrorism we all need a healthy dose of realism and throw away the "what if"s and "in hindsight"s. that's just my opinion. i think it was winston churchill that once said:

    if you are twenty and not a liberal, you have no heart. if you are forty and not a conservative, you have no brain.

    maybe i'm heartless or maybe i'm wise beyond my years. i don't know. i prefer to think it is the latter.

    By Blogger marcus, at 28 August, 2005 01:11  

  • matthew,

    i don't know where the confusion is coming from. i layed out in detail for kyle and whoever else stumbled across my blog the reasons for going to iraq. i believe that if the goal is accomplished there we will see benefits. these reasons/benefits are the justification for going to war whether you agree on the morality or not. you and i disagree on that. i don't get my sense of morality from 4th century catholic philosophers. as a protestant and "born-again christian" (i hate that phrase), i have rejected virtually all of what the catholic church teaches or has ever taught. i read the 7 points on the moral justification for war that you referenced, and IN MY OPINION, this war meets all 7. some of them better than others. you are more inclined to think it doesn't fit some at all and just barely does for others. we will never see eye to eye on that. i'm just trying to give another point of view that some liberals might be insulated from. we must look at the issues from all sides. debate is healthy and indeed quite necessary. but now that we are there, the debate about whether we should or not should end. all those protesters in crawford should go home. senators feingold and schumer should stop demanding immedaite and prompt withdrawal from iraq. it's counter-productive.

    By Blogger marcus, at 28 August, 2005 01:34  

  • diggs is in the house. i've missed you, man. but i must respectfully disagree.

    i think christ has a place in politics or at least, should. i don't think we should try to use him as a posterboy for one political side or movement over another, but, as christians, our sense of morality, justice and ethics are derived directly from his teachings. we shoud make laws and shape our government based on these things. this leads to a whole discussion on the seperation of church and state which is a subject for a future and upcoming post.

    but sufficed to say, i respectfully disagree with your assertion. much love.

    By Blogger marcus, at 28 August, 2005 02:06  

  • Marcus, one point I made on Diggs' blog was that Christianity as a specific religion should be left out of political rhetoric, however Christian ideals of love, charity, caring for others, peace, etc, are universally accepted as positives things and are more than welcome as political fodor. My friend and preacher's wife Deana Nall's blog quoted Bono of U2 the other day and here is what it said:

    "You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you....And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "As you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff."

    The rest of the quote can be read here

    I know I've turned this into a religious post, but my point is that all religions are basically about the same thing, but Christianity is different because it says that we're forgiven. Therefore, bringing the teachings of Christ into politics isn't wrong, it's just smart if the people you are trying to convince are Christians. In America it usually is. This doesn't mean that every school child should be issued a Bible or that the major tenets of Christian salvation should be taught as the only way in public schools, but Jesus had a lot to teach us, and we should maybe listen.

    What would this post be without something for Nathan to boycott my blog over? So here it goes:

    In his book "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them" Al Franken says:

    "Has Bush read the Bible? I'm sure he has. But, from the little I know about the New Testament Christ had a special place in His heart for the meek and the downtrodden. For the most publically religious administration in memory, to me, anyway, this one seems the least Christian."

    By Blogger Kyle, at 28 August, 2005 23:41  

  • i don't know where the confusion is coming from.

    I think I do. See, I ask a question, like this:

    "Are these the liberal arguments that you object to, and that I should attempt to defend? Or is there something else?"

    And it would be helpful for you to answer the question like this:

    "Yes, those are the arguments! Just try to defend them!"

    or this:

    "No, those aren't the liberal arguments I object to. Defend these, instead."

    That way, I know that you're actually trying to argue a proposition, and what proposition you're trying to argue. Otherwise, I might assume that you're just tossing up a bunch of arguments to see where they come down. Take this sentence, for example:

    i believe that if the goal is accomplished there we will see benefits.

    But what do you think the goal is? I mean, the stated goal was to get rid of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. But this obviously can't be what you mean, because there weren't any such weapons. So I have to guess at what exactly we disagree about.

    all those protesters in crawford should go home.

    Ok, based on this sentence, here's my guess. I I think you're saying:
    We should now try to stabilize Iraq regardless of whether our attack was morally justifiable.

    You might be surprised to know that as a damn fringe liberal, I agree with this. I think most of the elected democratic officials agree with this. We made the mess, and we should help clean it up. The part you and I disagree about is whether the preemptive, unilateral attack on Iraq was morally justifiable or well planned.

    Am I correct? Is this the primary point of contention?

    i have rejected virtually all of what the catholic church teaches or has ever taught.

    Categorically rejecting the largest and longest-lived Christian tradition seems like a mistake to me. I think that if you investigated Catholicism a bit more deeply, you'd find a many things to agree with.

    By Blogger Matthew, at 29 August, 2005 09:09  

  • Yes, Diggs, I blog everyday. As Marcus wrote on my blog, it can be adicting. IT was for me for a while, but now I have learned to manage it.

    Let me make one small and possibly inconsequential correction. Christianity is the most prevailant religion in America, but America is not a Christian nation. This is probably all you meant, but I just wanted to clarify. Here is another correction: Bill Clinton is a Christian. He attended church in Washington with his family, which, by the way, Bush does not. Clinton isn't the first devoted follower of God, by the way, to fall to sexual impurity. I don't think that Christianity has anything to do with how good a President one is. Every single President in America's history has been a professing Christian and there have been some pretty shotty ones.

    I guess you know what it's like to be in a country where Christianity isn't so widely accepted, but there is a downfall to being in such a staunchly Christian society. Sometimes people tend to be falsely Christian or act with the pretense of Christianity when there is really no Biblical basis for their actions or claims. But, I'm the type of person who likes to be in the minority because it gives me something to push for, I suppose. I like Dr. Pepper, not Coke. I'd rather eat at Jack in the Box than McDonald's. I vote Democrat. Maybe I'm subconsciously trying to make up for being a middle class white male, but I don't make these desicions lightly or without any real merit. But, I tend to go against the flow. From what I remember about you, Diggs, I think you could understand that.

    By Blogger Kyle, at 29 August, 2005 09:33  

  • Do your research. Clinton is a devout Christian. No he wasn't as public about it as Bush, but he was known to pray with Gore every week, meet with spiritual advisors, and attend church regularly. I would say that Bush has a more traditional, good ole' American, slice of apple pie, baseball, ole time Christianity and that Clinton may be a little more realistic in his faith. Not knowing either one, I can only speculate, but that's the impressions I get. Personally, I relate more to the one that is tarnished and broken than the one that seems to have all the right answers all the time.

    By Blogger Kyle, at 30 August, 2005 23:16  

  • Well, Marcus, I must say that your post has excellent scholarship written all over it. I am impressed. I enjoy Rush any time I get to hear him. I won't stipulate, apologize, or make any excuses for that. You have his gift for logic and clear-eyed thinking, which I value greatly in our great debate.

    By Blogger Ali C., at 02 September, 2005 11:19  

Post a Comment

<< Home